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David's avatar

As a chemical engineer, I think the problem with your discussion of water vs hydrogen and oxygen is that atoms are not fundamental particles. They are composed of quarks and electrons. So when hydrogen and oxygen react to form water, it's just a rearrangement of the components of the atoms. There's nothing metaphysical about it, and the widespread success of quantum mechanics in predicting the properties of atoms and molecules, to a very high degree of accuracy, is in my view extremely strong evidence of this.

Also worth noting:

Hydrogen is not inherently flammable, as evidenced by the fact that the Sun is not on fire. Hydrogen is flammable in Earth's atmosphere because it reacts exothermically with oxygen.

Water is in fact quite a reactive molecule, although the surface of the Earth has been so saturated with water for billions of years that there's not much, if anything, left in nature that water reacts with strongly enough to generate flames.

There are plenty of manmade substances that burn with water, though. An increasingly common example is lithium metal, which can form inside of a malfunctioning lithium ion battery. Don't ever pour water on a lithium battery fire!

The boiling points that you give are for molecular hydrogen and oxygen, H2 and O2, and are not inherent properties of the atoms. An interesting illustration of this fact is that ozone, O3, is also composed only of oxygen atoms, but has a boiling point over 100 F higher than that of O2.

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boylermaker's avatar

As a Catholic mechanist, I suppose it’s on me to defend the obviously best way of thinking about the physical world? (I’m not really a mechanist, more of an occasionalist who thinks mechanism is the best way of gaining a useful comprehension of the world, but close enough, I suspect).

This one doesn’t really work, although I think it’s reasonably close to doing so. Two possible approaches would be:

-Convert it from a criticism of mechanism to a criticism of materialism. The advantage of this is that your three supposed critiques of mechanism fail as such, but succeed (mostly) as critiques of materialism. You would have to be less performatively mad at Descartes, and I understand that this is a pretty-close-to-terminal-value for many people, so maybe this isn’t the best option.

-Acknowledge the incredible successes of mechanism in explaining the physical world, but critique our culture’s totalitarian attitude toward it; i.e., criticize the viewpoint that mechanistic explanations are somehow in tension with theistic ones (currently, I think your essay actually implies agreement with this Culturally Prominent Bad Opinion), and point out that non-material things are not made of parts (or the parts are inaccessible to us), and that the appropriate response to our best tool not functioning in that context is probably not to pretend that such things don’t exist.

I’ll address your three specific critiques of mechanism in reverse order.

#3: Minds

There is one, key, central fact about models—and by “model” I just mean something like “proposed explanation for some facet of reality”, not anything necessarily scientific or quantitative. That fact is that there is a tradeoff between prediction and causation: models can be designed to predict, or they can be designed to show causes. They can even do both, but they won’t do both well. This tradeoff makes us (both mechanists and scholastics) very uncomfortable, so we don’t talk about it enough—certainly the mechanists have plenty of blame on our shoulders now that we are in the second century of pretending that physical models involving fields are somehow causal. For one, the tradeoff presumably doesn’t exist in the mind of God, so it isn’t necessarily a fundamental feature of reality in the grandest sense, but it is certainly the case that at the level of human reason, we are stuck with this tradeoff. This is not a new idea: Bellarmine’s responses to Galileo are based on this tradeoff, and Galileo comes off like a philosophical dummy because he ignores it. But advances in physics and chemistry in the last 150 years or so have heightened the tension, and what really smacks us in the face these days are big data models, neural nets and so forth that really explore the far edges of the tradeoff, being astoundingly predictive and completely useless in sorting out causation.

I think our responses to this tradeoff are representative of scholasticism and mechanism more broadly: you want to find explanations that reveal the causes of things; I want to find explanations that are predictive. You have very little patience with predictive explanations that are not causal, and I vice versa.

I don’t think this is just a matter of taste, though (although it probably is to some degree). Predictive explanations have a number of useful properties, such that I argue we should prefer them a priori:

-Prediction, by forcing your theory frequently to interact with the real world, has a grounding effect that causal explanations do not. This effect becomes more valuable the more biased and confused you believe human reasoning is, and I am extremely cynical about human reason.

-Predictive models can function in environments in which causes are fundamentally incomprehensible to the human intellect. As members of a religion that holds as dogma that various aspects of reality are fundamentally mysterious, this should be appealing to both of us—more appealing the more things you think are truly incomprehensible.

-A weird benefit of predictive models that is really only useful in this exact context is that they are sufficient in themselves to demonstrate mechanism, and your example of the mind is an excellent one.

Thought experiment: say that we get really good at imaging the brain at a sub-cellular level, tracking neurotransmitters, etc. (You seem a bit grumpy that this hasn’t been done already by Leibnitz. Our understanding of how neurons operate in any detail at all is only decades old, and there are 10^11 neurons, so I don’t really understand you on this point, but … sorry, I guess? But let’s say we crack it in the future some time.)

This lets us describe the brain in terms of networks, firing cycles, whatever. Let’s posit that for every quale, we are able to describe an associated network of neurons with a particular structure and set of firing patterns. Let’s further posit that we can manipulate the brain such that we observe:

-Whenever the firing pattern appears, people report experience of the quale.

-The firing pattern does not appear at times when people report no experience of the quale.

-Causing the firing pattern to appear produces experience of the quale even in unusual circumstances.

-Preventing the firing pattern from occurring prevents experience of the quale even in circumstances in which it would normally be experienced.

These findings—assuming they are sufficiently universal, etc—would:

1) Demonstrate the mechanistic character of qualia, i.e., that they can be explained (in the predictive sense of ‘explanation’) in terms of the behavior of their parts, in this case, the neurons of the brain.

2) Not provide ANY PROGRESS WHATSOEVER on the hard problem of consciousness, or any support for materialism, for that matter. Since we wouldn’t have any understanding of what causes qualia, it might just be that God tells your guardian angel to be on the lookout for certain brain patterns, and then give an immaterial poke to your immaterial soul to produce the associated qualia. This wouldn’t be a materialist explanation, but it would be a mechanistic one.

I think that your current attitude toward the mind is an extraordinarily dangerous one, for your daughter. I think it is extremely possible that during her lifetime we will make an enormous amount of progress in putting qualia on a mechanistic footing. It won’t explain what causes them, or do anything to harm non-materialist accounts of consciousness, but we can demonstrate mechanism without doing that. I don’t see the benefit in tying the rest of your apologetics to an unnecessary claim that is likely to be demonstrated false, and risks delegitimizing everything else you’ve said here. You don’t need to stake this claim AT ALL. Why gamble with the soul of your daughter?

#2: Water

I don’t understand why you think any of the claims you’ve made represent a problem for mechanism, so I won’t engage for now (and David seems to be anyway). If you want to explain your thoughts, I’m happy to respond!

#1: Circles

Again, this seems like something that is aimed at materialism, not mechanism. Mechanists have no problem invoking mathematical objects to describe the behavior of the world, and I’m not sure why you think that they do—is there a mechanist in the modern lineage who thinks that the components of the world are actually inert billiard balls? I’m happy to read up on him, if so, but I am skeptical he exists. Based on some of your replies to comments here, I get the impression that you want to say something like “aha, you have said that electrons have certain properties, but isn’t that just the scholastic ideas about properties and natures being smuggled in!?”

To which a mechanist would reply: Sure? Whatever? We aren’t approaching the world as if everything is lacking in properties. We’re trying to treat those properties responsibly, by which I mean that the properties invoked are mathematically describable and resulting from the interactions of the parts of the thing in question. And if there are things with “atomic” properties, we’d like to push that to as low a level as possible. But if we can do that, we mechanists are very comfortable having you jump in at the last minute to gloss all the stuff we’ve learned about physics and how it shows how Aristotle was right all along about action and potency or whatever. We are not insecure about this, because we remember which of the two approaches to properties results in nuclear reactors—and discovers entirely new realms of reality to explore and explain.

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